Friday, December 05, 2008

XKCD wrote one about me.....

Friends with detriments. A little too accurate to be funny. I've danced that dance more times than I can count. Guess I never really thought of it as insulting to the woman to assume that you can win them over by being the friend. I suppose it is in its own way. I guess I still just hold to the theory that a good relationship is really just an amazing friendship so it made sense to pursue it that way. For better or worse the accepted method is to have romance then figure out if you can be friends. I'm still learning...


Former Nice Guy [tm] said...

Sure, you can have a great relationship grow out a friendship. But reread the cartoon: that's not what's happening there.

The narrator's basically playing mind games with the woman (and with himself) trying to get her to settle for him by a passive-aggressive war of attrition,
instead of just being straightforward with her.

If he were to really respect her (and himself) once he realized he was romantically interested in her he'd make that clear in reasonably short order, and be honest about it, instead of pretending his interest is something different. If a romance is not appropriate or welcome, he'd move on to look for romance elsewhere instead of sticking to pining after her.

For more on the subtly nasty dynamics going on there, check the Xkcd forum for this particular cartoon (though not everyone there gets it). Or just Google "nice guy tm" for some more bracing critiques of the syndrome.

Anonymous said...

"You hear it all the time: "He was such a NICE Guy, and she's such a Heartless Bitch for dumping him."

I get letters from self-professed Nice Guys, complaining that women must WANT to be treated like shit, because THEY, the "Nice Guy" have failed repeatedly in relationships. This is akin to the false logic that "Whales are mammals. Whales live in the sea. Therefore, all mammals live in the sea."

If you have one bad relationship after another, the only common denominator is YOU. Think about it.

What's wrong with Nice Guys? The biggest problem is that most Nice Guys (tm) are hideously insecure. They are so anxious to be liked and loved that they do things for other people to gain acceptance and attention, rather than for the simply pleasure of giving. You never know if a Nice Guy really likes you for who you are, or if he has glommed onto you out of desperation because you actually paid some kind of attention to him.

Nice Guys exude insecurity -- a big red target for the predators of the world. There are women out there who are "users" -- just looking for a sucker to take advantage of. Users home-in on "Nice Guys", stroke their egos, take them for a ride, add a notch to their belts, and move on. It's no wonder so many Nice Guys complain about women being horrible, when the so often the kind of woman that gets attracted to them is the lowest form of life...

Self-confident, caring, decent-hearted women find "Nice Guys" to be too clingy, self-abasing, and insecure.

Nice Guys go overboard. They bring roses to a "lets get together for coffee" date. They try to buy her affections with presents and fancy things. They think they know about romance, but their timing is all wrong, and they either come-on too strong, too hard and too fast, OR, they are so shy and unassertive, that they hang around pretending to be "friends", in the hope that somehow, someway, they will get the courage up to ask her out for a "date".

They are so desperate to please that they put aside their own needs, and place the object of their desire on a pedestal. Instead of appreciating her, they worship her. We are only human, and pedestals are narrow, confining places to be -- not to mention the fact that we tend to fall off of them.

They cling to her, and want to be "one" with her for fear that if she is out of sight, she may disappear or become attracted to someone else. A Nice Guy often has trouble with emotional intimacy, because he believes that if she learns about the REAL person inside, she will no longer love him.

Nice Guys are always asking HER to make the decisions. They think it's being equitable, but it puts an unfair burden of responsibility on her, and gives him the opportunity to blame her if the decision was an unwise one.

Nice Guys rarely speak up when something bothers them, and rarely state clearly what it is they want, need and expect. They fear that any kind of conflict might spell the end of the relationship. Instead of comprimising and negotiating, they repeatedly "give in". When she doesn't appreciate their sacrifice, they will complain that, "Everything I did, I did for her.", as if this somehow elevates them to the status of martyrs. A woman doesn't want a martyr. She wants an equal, caring, adult partner.

Nice Guys think that they will never meet anyone as special as she is. They use their adoration as a foundation for claiming that "no one will ever love her as much as I do." Instead of being a profound statement of their devotion, this is a subtle, but nasty insult. It is akin to saying to her: "You are a difficult person, and only *I* can ever truly love you, so be thankful I'm here."

The nice guy -needs- to believe that he is the best person for the object of his desires, because otherwise his insecurities will overrun him with jealousies and fear. The truth of the matter is that there are many people out there who can be a good match for her. We rarely stop loving people we truly care about. Even if we no longer continue the relationship, the feelings will continue... But love isn't mutually exclusive. We can (and do) love many people in our lives, and romantic love is really no different. Though he may love her immensely, there will likely be other people who have loved her just as much in her past, and will love her just as much in the future. The irony of it all is: "Who would want to go out with someone who was inherintly unlovable anyways?"

More than loving the woman in his life, a Nice Guy NEEDS her. "She is my Life, my only source of happiness..." YECH! What kind of a burden is that to place on her? That SHE has to be responsible for YOUR happiness? Get a grip!

Another mistake Nice Guys make is to go after "hard luck" cases. They deliberately pick women with neuroses, problems, and personality disorders, because Nice Guys are "helpers". A Nice Guy thinks that by "helping" this woman, it will make him a better, more lovable person. He thinks it will give him a sense of accomplishment, and that she will appreciate and love him more, for all his efforts and sacrifice. He is usually disappointed by the results.

This ultimately boils down to the fact that Nice Guys don't like themselves. Is it any wonder women don't like them? In order to truly love someone else, you must first love yourself. Too often Nice Guys mistake obsession for "love".


You don't have to be an ego-inflated, arrogant jerk. You just have to LIKE yourself. You have to know what you want out of life, and go after it. Only then will you be attractive to the kind of woman with whom a long-term relationship is possible. "

Kilgore Trout said...

Wow. I wish I had read this comment like 5 years ago. Within the last year I've pretty much learned this, thank you for laying it out so clearly, or for copy and pasting from whoever wrote it so bluntly.

Anonymous said...

I did in fact copy and paste it. I know I couldn't put it so bluntly. How do I know this? because when we used to be friends I tried to explain all of this to you- but you didn't want to listen. I am not trying to be mean or cruel but when I tried to explain how hurtful some of the things you were doing actually were I got told I was incorrect. People have tried to explain this to you but you just didn't see the flip side. And I think you should be proud of yourself for finally seeing the other side of it. If you are really changing than I than I wish you the best of luck because that is something that will change your life forever.

Kilgore Trout said...

Wow. I just got put in my place hard. It was your honesty that I fell for in the first place (assuming this is SG), so thanks. I'm sorry things turned out the way they did, guess you just met me at the wrong time.

I know that I was hideously insecure, and in that way I definitely have changed. I can't say I don't have insecurities, I'm pretty sure that everyone does, but yeah I have finally started to like myself. I've started going back to school and I'm doing quite well, thats been a big boost. You know that I always liked to have challenging conversations, well now I can do it with knowledgeable people, often just the teacher but still.

You just hurt because at the time I thought I was doing everything right. I thought I was very straight forward that I was looking for more than friendship when I called you 30 seconds after I was given your number. So when you said that you were just looking for a friend and thought I knew it hurt. I was ok with a bad relationship, the one thing I couldn't deal with at that point was one more woman who just wanted a friend.

After that is when I fell into exactly what you've talked about here.

I don't mean to dig up the past, it doesn't matter anymore.

I hope that things are going well with you. I heard rumor you are/were dating a certain friend with whom we shared a crazy evening, but it wasn't from the most reliable of sources. If so then congrats! If not then I hope you're happy with whatever you're doing these days. I'll be honest, I'm not sure that I'm ready to be your friend again, but do stay in touch.

Anonymous said...

Dude I understand. I did have some wild nights with a friend of ours, but it was not dating since that was not what I was looking for. I'm not trying to dig up the past either, I'm just trying to say i'm proud of you for seeing the other side now. I'm not sure if I'm ready to be friends wtih you again either and I don't mean that in a bitchy way..Just that neither of us are ready for that in this point in our lives. But that I do care about everyone from my past and that i do check up on you through your blog because I believe you are a friendly person, everyone just had some rough times.

Kilgore Trout said...

Thank you.

I know you weren't being a bitch, I feel the same way.

I'm currently the happiest I've been in a long time. Life is far from perfect but now its headed in the right direction again. After being stuck in a rut for years, thats a great feeling.

As for trying to tell me, in the words of Douglas Adams "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."

What really taught me was a recent experience with someone who was more interested in me than I was in them. It suddenly clicked what I had done wrong so many times before. I wish just being told would work but, especially when its relationship stuff, we only really learn from experience. Now that I've been on that side I can fully accept the stuff you wrote, er copied and pasted.

Who knows what the future will bring, maybe someday we'll be friends again.


Anonymous said...

I'm glad to hear you are happy :).

Kilgore Trout said...

And how are you these days?

Anonymous said...

I'm doing good thanks for asking. I've been super busy with work, school, tapping into my creativity, and trying to be social!

Kilgore Trout said...

How is school? Do you still hate (er thats a strong word, dislike) your classmates?

Anonymous said...

lol I'm still having problems with a few of them...But on the other hand I am really close to a couple of them.
Do I want to know what was said about me [going back to the post earlier]? I know how people can talk and I have a feeling that I might not want to know

Kilgore Trout said...

Oh it was pretty harsh, something to the effect of,
"I heard (you) were dating (him)."
and I replied, "k"

I can't remember what made him think of it, we might have been talking about a friend who went vegetarian.

Anonymous said...

Lol Whoa that is harsh...
i was expecting worse for some reason

Kilgore Trout said...

Probably because I was quite the asshole to you the last time I we spoke.

Anonymous said...

no no I wasn't expecting worse from you, Worse from people as a whole. & you weren't an asshole we just had some miscommunications